Vehicle Insignia

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Vehicle Insignia

CART Web Monitor
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POSTED BY TOM SYKES ON BEHALF OF BILL ASHBY

Aux logo

It is blurred but can anyone identify the Formation Sign being  
used by Sussex Aux.  What Units besides Aux used the Tac No. 490?
Kind Regards,

CART Team
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Re: Vehicle Insignia

Peter A
Hi
I've looked through several books in the JSCSC Library on British military markings and insignia, regimental badges etc and without any luck in finding any indication as to what the symbol on the wheel arch might be - I thought it would be a regimental insignia but I can't see any that are close. What I can gather though, is the badge to the left (490) indicates the truck's tactical unit . . . the black board with a white bar at the bottom indicating it belongs to the headquarters of an army-level formation. I will keep trying!
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Re: Vehicle Insignia

Matthew Gibbs
According to John Warwicker the army transport collecting Auxiliers in Highworth would carry the unit insignia for GHQ which is a Lion Rampant on a red and blue background, and the Units Identifying Number 490, which was the number for GHQ Auxiliary Units. Since its mentioned that this was an Army Level Formation I suggest that the number 490 being for GHQ Auxiliary Units is a formation at that high a level, its a General Headquarters, which I believed was a very senior unit designation?
See page 84 Churchills Secret Army.
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Re: Vehicle Insignia

Bill A
I am still seeking confirmation but it would appear that the Formation Sign on my Fathers vehicle is the early version of GHQ Home Forces.  It does not appear in any of the reference books such as 'Coles' etc that I have seen.   This is the only picture I have

   

If you know where there is a better one , please post it here.

From 1942 the Sign was changed to this better known version

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Re: Vehicle Insignia

Matt Gibbs
That's really useful information! In the vehicle photo is it my imagination or is the bottom of the badge lighter than the top, if so is it the likelyhood is its blue and red, which the later version adopts, but with a different symbol?
Unless someone unearths a high ranking officers photo taken in early Kodakchrome colour film I don't know how we'd find out, except in a pre or early war booklet on vehicle insignia. Was there such a thing ?
Regards
Matt
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Re: Vehicle Insignia

Bill Ashby
Matthew - You may be right BUT it does not look half over half - more like a different colour background near the bottom of the plate.  Take a look at the original photo (of the car parked in the street with the squaddie kneeling) which is in the set posted on this website under Lt Ashby.
Having said that the one and only illustration I have shows it with a total black background.

The search goes on!
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Re: Vehicle Insignia

Matt Gibbs
Hiya
Do you think perhaps its bicoloured along the diagonal which would account for the lighter patches at bottom right and top left below the image? This would be in keeping with many other blue and red divided tac signs I have seen. What do you think?
Regards
Matt

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Re: Vehicle Insignia

Bill Ashby
Maybe, Could be, Possibly - Frustrating isn't it!

Yesterday I sent an enquiry to the IWM.  Lets hope they come up with something.
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Re: Vehicle Insignia

CART Web Monitor
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Any news yet Bill?
Kind Regards,

CART Team
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Re: Vehicle Insignia

Bill A
Nothing back from the IWM or NAM yet but a kind gentleman responded to a request I put on a website....

The harp badge of GHQ Home Forces was chosen because, at the time, GHQ was based at Kneller Hall which had been the home of the Royal Military School of Music. It was replaced as a vehicle sign by the lion badge in February 1942.
It was listed in the WO pamphlet GHQ,Corps and Divisional Signs 1940 thus...

>

AS far as I know its never appeared in any easily available reference book.

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Re: Vehicle Insignia

Matt Gibbs
Thats brilliant news. I'd forgotten about this, but its a great story about how the badge came to be.
ttfn
Matt
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Re: Vehicle Insignia

Bill A
The IWM response was 'sorry the picture is blurred cannot help, try the National Army Museum'.  I emailed them at the same time as the IWM but had nothing yet.

So if anyone sees a good photo that shows the badge please contact me.

Thank you

TTFN
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Re: Vehicle Insignia 45?

Bill A
Here is a better shot of the GHQ Home Forces ver 1 Formation sign.

What Unit had the white Tac No. 45 on a black background?

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Re: Vehicle Insignia 45?

Peter D Antill
Hi

Good book - Peter Hodges. British Military Markings 1939 - 1945, Edgeware: Almark Publications, 1971.

According to him, such signs were to show which formation administered that particular vehicle. So for the vehicle at the top, it belonged directly to the HQ of the GHQ Home Forces.

A white 45 on a black background is indicted as belonging to a Corps' Machinegun Battalion, part of what's known as 'Corps Troops' – units held by the Corps HQ for administration and support, or as deployable assets to support lower formations – circa 1940.

This was later replaced by the No. 64, although these tended to be held by the divisions as 'Divisional Troops' rather than by the Corps. See the illustration below:



Peter
Peter D Antill (Researcher, Centre for Defence Acquisition, Defence Academy of the United Kingdom) "We seek a free flow of information... we are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas, alien philosophies, and competitive values. For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people." JFK, 21 Nov 1963
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Re: Vehicle Insignia 45?

Bill A
Thank you Peter.  Wonder why Alanbrooke was in a staff car belonging to a MG Bn.  I would have thought GHQ Home Forces would have had their own MT Pool.
 
Bill

On 4 August 2010 16:00, Peter D Antill [via Coleshill House - Auxiliary Unit Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi

Good book - Peter Hodges. British Military Markings 1939 - 1945, Edgeware: Almark Publications, 1971.

According to him, such signs were to show which formation administered that particular vehicle. So for the vehicle at the top, it belonged directly to the HQ of the GHQ Home Forces. A white 45 on a black background is indicted as belonging to a Corps' Machinegun Battalion, part of what's known as 'Corps Troops' – units held by the Corps HQ for administration and support, or as deployable assets to support lower formations – circa 1940.

Peter
Peter D Antill (Researcher, Centre for Defence Acquisition, Defence Academy of the United Kingdom) "We seek a free flow of information... we are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas, alien philosophies, and competitive values. For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people." JFK, 21 Nov 1963





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Re: Vehicle Insignia 45?

Richard Woods
In reply to this post by Peter D Antill
The number on Allanbrooke's car wasn't 45 rather it was 845

Hope that's of use to someone.

RW
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Re: Vehicle Insignia 45?

Bill A
Richard can you tell me what Unit used the AOS No. 845 and what was the background colour of 490 AOS